{"id":1445,"date":"2022-01-11T15:08:58","date_gmt":"2022-01-11T15:08:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blogs.sussex.ac.uk\/psychology\/?p=1445"},"modified":"2022-01-11T16:40:29","modified_gmt":"2022-01-11T16:40:29","slug":"interview-with-professor-zoltan-dienes-leading-researcher-on-hypnosis","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blogs.sussex.ac.uk\/psychology\/2022\/01\/11\/interview-with-professor-zoltan-dienes-leading-researcher-on-hypnosis\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Professor Zoltan Dienes – leading researcher on hypnosis"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

University of Sussex professor, Zoltan Dienes talks cold control theory and phenomenological control with Psychology MRes student, Kev Sheldrake. <\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I first heard of Zoltan Dienes (pronounced \u2018dee-en-es\u2019, or more correctly, \u2018dee-en-esh\u2019) when I devoured the theory section of the Oxford Handbook of Hypnosis<\/em>. His chapter with Amanda Barnier described \u2018cold control theory\u2019 \u2013 an integrative theory of how suggestions were taken. Unlike the neoneodissociation theories (dissociated control, for example) it didn\u2019t invent parts of the brain or mind to explain what was going on. And unlike Nicholas Spanos\u2019s role-play or Graham Wagstaff\u2019s \u2018expectation, strategy and compliance\u2019 theories, it took a strong, solid stab at accounting for the feelings of automaticity and involuntariness. As far as I was aware, only Irving Kirsch\u2019s response set theory had really attempted this in the socio-cognitive (or cognitive-behaviour) domain, so it was a big deal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Fast forward to the UK Hypnosis Convention<\/a> in 2019 and Zoltan and I were speaking on the same stage on the same day \u2013 Zoltan missed my talk but I\u2019ve since forced him to watch a recording of it on pain of death. We got chatting afterwards and I expressed how influential his work had been on my thinking about hypnosis, and in the development of the (theoretical but never-formally-tested) Automatic Imagination Model, that Anthony Jacquin and I put together while at Head Hacking<\/a> (circa 2010).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Since then, and since starting this wonderful blog with my amazing wife, Amy, I\u2019ve been reading a lot of vintage and classic academic texts on the topic, and decided to ask Zoltan whether there was any way he would supervise me studying for a part-time PhD. He agreed on the proviso that I studied first for a Master of Research degree in psychological methods, so that\u2019s where I am right now \u2013 one term into a Master\u2019s degree, being supervised by my hypno-hero, Zoltan Dienes! When it came to choosing people to interview for this blog, Zoltan was an obvious first candidate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Professor Zoltan Dienes chatting to Kev via Zoom.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

When asking Zoltan about how he became interested in hypnosis, it was surprising to discover that, really, hypnosis chose him:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cIt was sort of a coincidence, really. My first degree was natural sciences, and I specialised in psychology, and decided I wanted to be an academic while I was doing my first degree. I was born in Australia, and grew up there until I was 11. And I thought, it would be nice to go back to \u2018the fatherland\u2019 and do a Master’s there before going on to do a PhD. And so I applied to Australian universities. At that time, I didn’t think about hypnosis, but I thought about maybe the application of cognitive psychology to clinical issues. One of the places I applied was Macquarie [Sydney], and they took my application to be for what they called an MA, which is actually like an MPhil, or a mini PhD in two years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cSo the crucial issue then was having a supervisor retain me as you would with a PhD. Kevin McConkey was interested in the application of cognitive psychology in hypnosis. They accepted me and I arrived at Macquarie, and Kevin gave me the review of hypnosis that had just been written by John Kihlstrom (this was in 1985). And he said, \u2018If you want me to be your supervisor, it has to be on hypnosis, so read this review, and see what you think.\u2019 Anyway, I read Kihlstrom\u2019s review and thought, \u2018Well, this sounds quite interesting to me really.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve heard many a lay-hypnotist claim that academics aren\u2019t very good at hypnosis and that they rarely use it, preferring instead to theorise, but not Zoltan: \u201cSo then I sort of hypnotised 100 people in the name of science and wrote that up as a Master’s thesis.\u201d Zoltan explained that Kevin McConkey had a very active lab (one of the \u2018big five\u2019 in the world at the time; the other four being in the USA), and that they would screen hundreds of new psychology undergraduate students entering the university each year, for their response to hypnosis. He told me that back then, each UK university might have had between 30 and 40 new psychology undergraduates each year, making hypnosis research implausible, but that now Sussex (where Zoltan is a professor of experimental psychology) has an intake of over 500 each year, and that the majority of them are screened. The point being that if you want to run experiments, it is very helpful to have a large, pre-tested set of students who are prepared to take part in experiments, where you already know how good or bad they are at taking suggestions before you start.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When I asked him if that made Sussex the leading university in the UK for hypnosis research, he was unequivocal: \u201cSo part of first-year psychology requirements is a phenomenological control screening now, and we\u2019ve been screening hundreds of people a year for hypnotisability since about 2006. I don’t know of any other place in the UK that has a regular year-on-year screening. Every year we\u2019ll get out several papers on hypnosis. I can’t think of anywhere else [in the UK]; Oakley did have a big operation at UCL, but he’s now retired.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Especially as Zoltan hadn\u2019t specifically chosen to research hypnosis, I really wanted to know what he thought it was when he started out, and what he thinks it is now. He told me that initially he had no idea what was going on, and that non-hypnosis academics often fall into a similar camp:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cIt’s interesting when you talk to scientists who don’t do hypnosis, about hypnosis, because they have absorbed the cultural stereotypes, and they haven’t really processed it in terms of their scientific understanding of the world yet, so they can believe all these myths about hypnosis. At the same time, they\u2019re trying to be a scientist, so they try and square all that information. And I guess I was like that, but I found it intriguing. So I didn’t have any set ideas and I found all the ideas out there a bit baffling in a sense.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Zoltan told me that Ernest Hilgard\u2019s theory of parallel streams of consciousness made little sense to him when it came to pain control, because: \u201cWhy would anyone want hypnotic analgesia, if there\u2019s this other conscious stream in intense pain?\u201d. But on the other side of the debate, he didn\u2019t really think that role enactment (Nicholas Spanos, Theodore Sarbin, William Coe, etc) properly explained hypnotic phenomena, nor was even saying anything fundamentally different to Hilgard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Zoltan appeared as the hypnosis expert on The Assassin<\/em>, one of Derren Brown: The Experiments<\/em> TV shows broadcast on Channel 4 in 2011.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Zoltan\u2019s insight, and the way he currently thinks about hypnosis, was that both sides of the debate were simply using different metaphors for the same thing. On the one side, Hilgard was describing parts of the mind in ways that Zoltan understood to be metaphors \u2013 even if Hilgard himself believed them as actual fact (\u201cI don\u2019t think Hilgard thought it was a metaphor\u201d). On the other side, Spanos was using the metaphor of role enactment, essentially saying that the participant performs the action but somehow believes they aren\u2019t the cause of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cI think I got to the bottom of that confusion in my mind when I came up with cold control theory, because there was a sense in which both Spanos and Hilgard were saying the same thing, which is what I put my finger on, in terms of cold control. And that sort of, I think, was partly a way of resolving my sense of confusion about what are they really arguing about? Well, part of that was because actually they had quite a lot in common, even though they sounded so very different.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I suggested to Zoltan (pun intended) that what I found interesting and unique to cold control theory was that it presented testable hypotheses and, if the theory stood up, it would result in things you could actually change in order to improve response to suggestion, which other theories typically did not. Zoltan agreed; so I had to ask him, what role did he think the hypnotic induction plays in all of this? \u201cI think no role,\u201d he replied. He told me that William James in the late 19th century concluded that almost anything could be an induction: \u201cRubbing the temples, looking into the eyes\u2026 You could write a letter, it also has that!\u201d. The implication was that if anything could be an induction, then an induction was essentially nothing, other than just a suggestion to enter a \u2018trance\u2019.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And on that, we discussed what people meant by the word \u2018trance\u2019 and what he thought of that whole area: \u201cThe thing with special states, and the sort of approach you find is people think, \u2018Oh, good, cognitive neuroscience, EEG and ERPs\u2019, and all sorts of things. And what they seem to think is if we find anything happening at all, in this huge mass of EEG data, that it\u2019s a sign that the state is real, which obviously doesn’t follow at all. There’s no theory there. You’re just looking at a tonne of data. But there has not been a theory of trance that makes predictions about what will happen in EEG, fMRI or anything else, or at least that could not also be equally well explained by use of imagination in accordance with demand characteristics.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Regardless of whether there is a state (spoiler: there isn\u2019t) different people respond to differing levels to suggestion, so where did Zoltan find himself on that scale? \u201cOne of the first things I did when I went to Kevin McConkey\u2019s lab to start my Master\u2019s was sit in on the Harvard screening and, unfortunately, I am a low. I can experience some of the basic motor suggestions, which I’m pleased with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cIrving Kirsch tells me he’s a medium. Hilgard [statetist] apparently was a low. But Theodore Barber [socio-cognitive theorist, or non-state] was a high. So Hilgard thought, \u2018Wow, these highs are really amazing with what they can do\u2019; because he couldn’t do it, he thought it was something special. Whereas Barber thought: any old fool can do this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This perspective on the researcher\u2019s own hypnotic (or phenomenological control) capabilities, and the subsequent way they devised theory was really interesting. The guy who pretty much couldn\u2019t achieve any hypnotic phenomena saw those who could as special, and invented special mechanisms by which they experienced the things they did. Whereas the guy who could personally experience all the phenomena didn\u2019t think it was special at all, and consequently felt that all minds had the capability, and that it must just be the way he was using his, that resulted in the phenomena that he experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Zoltan on The Assassin<\/em>.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

So we got talking about hypnotic anecdotes and Zoltan revealed that he is, in fact, a secret street hypnotist!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cOne anecdote through phenomenological control I often tell people relates to what you’re asking about how hypnotizable researchers are. I had a PhD student, Rebecca, doing a hypnosis session; she was a high, and at the time I was doing work with Irving on the colour experiment. I was quite interested in that the highest could do it without an induction and just be told to do it, basically. So I said to Rebecca, \u2018We’re sitting in a cafe, you see that bottle in front of you, you can turn it red, if you want\u2019. She said, \u2018No I can’t do that\u2019, and then she said \u2018Oh! It\u2019s turned red!\u2019. So she didn\u2019t know she had this capability to do it. Or somehow she deceived herself enough that it was surprising to her.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This reminded me of a Head Hacking discovery of \u2018permanosis\u2019, where once we\u2019d hypnotised someone, we could just deliver suggestions at a future time and they would be taken as if we\u2019d re-hypnotised them. Obviously, now I know it\u2019s all just suggestion and the induction was unnecessary, but, at the time, Anthony gave a similar suggestion with a bottle in a cafe to someone he had hypnotised once about three weeks prior. He told him his hand was stuck to the bottle and that it would rise into the air. While filming this, I reached out from behind the camera and grabbed his other hand and told him it was stuck to Anthony, and of course it was. I\u2019d never hypnotised the guy before, but he knew I was a hypnotist. At the time we thought we\u2019d discovered something but obviously this was well known (even James referred to it back in the 1890s!).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I asked Zoltan for his favourite hypnosis book and he nominated Lynn and Kirsch\u2019s Essentials of Clinical Hypnosis: An Evidence-Based Approach<\/em> (review coming soon!). \u201cI like the stuff Irving Kirsch has done. I quite liked the preamble to that; I use it as a basis for my introductory lectures to hypnosis that I give to first-years.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But when asked for a fiction reference Zoltan was far from forthcoming. No amount of celebrating The Exorcist II<\/em>, The Manchurian Candidate<\/em>, Fear In The Night<\/em>, or Dean Koontz\u2019s False Memory <\/em>would draw him into giving a literary reference that he actually liked. \u201cI probably get annoyed by the way hypnosis is portrayed in literature generally. So no I can’t think of a favourite hypnosis film.\u201d (Sad face.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I asked Zoltan what he thought about the effect that Derren Brown has had on people\u2019s beliefs about hypnosis and he revealed that he had actually appeared on one of his shows \u2013 The Assassin<\/em> \u2013 as the hypnosis expert!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cSo he brings in a hypnosis expert, mainly me. I say, \u2018That can’t be done\u2019. He says, \u2018That’s what the experts say. But what can I do?\u2019. It was fun. And it was really interesting to see how stage hypnosis works in a TV setting. Because the responses he was getting were just phenomenal. You know, there’s a TV audience, and he says, \u2018I’ll tell you to do some suggestions and I\u2019ll select the people who are responding well\u2019. So he’s giving these really complex suggestions, like you’ll see people naked or things that only highs should be able to experience, but the whole audience was acting them out as if they’re intensely experiencing these.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I asked him what he thought this meant for the public\u2019s understanding of psychology and hypnosis in particular, and he was relatively measured in his response: \u201cTo be fair to him, I picked up one of his books in the bookshop, and just skimmed it on hypnosis, and he said, \u2018Don’t believe anything I say on TV\u2019. So he openly acknowledges that, but, still, that doesn’t get through to the fanbase.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

All this talk of Derren inevitably led to a conversation about NLP: \u201cThere’s a lot of wishy-washy stuff. I mean, couldn’t you be put into trance by stroking Erickson’s dog, for example?\u201d (As a reminder, Zoltan thinks \u2018trance\u2019 is the result of a suggestion, not a state, and he probably thinks it is quite a silly concept.) \u201cThere’s all sorts of things; \u2018if you confuse a person, they’ll be at the point of sort of trance\u2019 seems like, you know, all sorts of wishful thinking about magic.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And similar with conversational or covert hypnosis: \u201cWhat I think happens is, particularly if you want to be part of the group, you want to sort of fulfil the requirements of being in that group. And in an experiment, it’s part of the experimental team, as it were, and you feel motivated to create the effects that the experimenter wants. Because that is sort of what’s meant to happen in that context, and so you do it. You can imagine that \u2013 I mean, in religious contexts, it\u2019s exactly the same thing: social pressure, adherence, something religious. If you’re a high, you create those experiences.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But this means that the application of conversational or covert hypnosis is limited to these circumstances: \u201cThat means you wouldn’t be able to hypnotise the mugger to stop him mugging you\u201d \u2013 which I think is worth knowing! (The wall outside my house is <\/em>four-feet high, by the way, Derren.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And this conversation about NLP naturally led to one about hypnotherapy. I recounted a story where Irving told<\/a> a room full of hypnotherapists (at \u2018change | phenomena\u2019 in 2011) that, if they weren\u2019t otherwise qualified to treat psychological issues without hypnosis, that they shouldn\u2019t be treating them with hypnosis, and that maybe they should limit their offerings to helping people handle chronic pain instead. When I asked Zoltan where he stood on this issue he drew a comparison with the teaching of martial arts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

He said that in France they limit martial arts training to only those that are accepted and regulated, which meant that the introduction of mixed martial arts (MMA), where many fighting approaches are combined, was very slow to gain acceptance and therefore become available. Whereas in the UK (where Zoltan teaches martial arts), there isn\u2019t such stringent regulation; it was easy for him and others to pivot from karate to MMA with few requirements to satisfy, resulting in a much faster uptake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whilst he didn\u2019t want \u201ccharlatans who don\u2019t know what they\u2019re doing\u201d charging people for therapies that don\u2019t work, he also felt his instincts were against the idea of mandatory regulation. He didn\u2019t think that science was yet in a position to state which therapy works well enough to regulate it and force everyone to stick with that one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, there we have it \u2013 possibly one of the best interviews I\u2019m ever going to conduct. Partly, that\u2019s because Zoltan is high-hypno-hero-priest, up there with Irving Kirsch, and few others could hope to achieve the insights that he has; and partly, because he\u2019s my supervisor for my Master’s degree and, assuming everything goes well, for my PhD in experimental psychology, specialising in hypnosis. Or should I say \u2018phenomenological control\u2019? Either way, what a fantastic opening to our (hopeful) series of interviews with academics. I can only hope that Graham Wagstaff gives me the same level of gossip, or that Donald Gorassini is secretly a Mason.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

(Side note: Amy thinks that hypnosis should be rebranded as Zoltanism, because it just sounds so mystical. I didn\u2019t get to ask what he thought, but I imagine Zoltan is more interested in removing the mysticism than he is in adding it, hence phenomenological control. Sorry, Amy \u2013 this rebrand isn\u2019t going to happen.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This interview was originally featured on hypnosis website Cosmic Pancakes<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

University of Sussex professor, Zoltan Dienes talks cold control theory and phenomenological control with Psychology MRes student, Kev Sheldrake. I first heard of Zoltan Dienes (pronounced \u2018dee-en-es\u2019, or more correctly, \u2018dee-en-esh\u2019) when I devoured the theory section of the Oxford…<\/span><\/p>\n

Read more ›<\/a><\/div>\n

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